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Nicolas

The Hitler issue.

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I was going to post the following text as a response to KerrTexas on the thread http://timetravelinstitute.com/threads/regardless-of-consequences.9112/ but as I wrote It I realized it would be a whole other subject. I also would like to know what you guys think about it. Well, here it is:

 

I've always thought about the Hitler issue, regarding time traveling, and I tend to face it differently. One wouldn't have to kill him. Not even kill anyone for that matter. Going back a bit further in time would be enough to just avoid his parents to meet. I don't know, but going back somewhere in time where his mother met his father (I mean, if you have the technology to travel through time like that, you sure could dig up at least the year they met), and intervene in her life in some way that you could change HOW or even better, IF, she met Adolf's father.

 

I do believe that small changes in the past, could mean big changes in the future. Let's say you change the day they met. She was going to the bakery where she met him but you lock the gate of her house with a padlock. She gets late to the bakery and he's not there anymore. For some reason, probably because that Austrian city is small, they met some other day. They still got married, and she still got pregnant. The whole embryology would be different this time. The baby could even be a girl. If it was a boy, it would not be Hitler. She could even name him Adolf Hitler but again, his genetics would not be the same. Then history would've change because of a padlock.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

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She could even name him Adolf Hitler but again, his genetics would not be the same.

It was not Hitler's genetics, it was of the fact that his father was over controlling along with being highly abusive.

 

 

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It was not Hitler's genetics, it was of the fact that his father was over controlling along with being highly abusive.

I'm pretty sure that's not the first father who is labeled as over controlling and highly abusive. But the others don't generate a Hitler. It has nothing to do with his father.

 

Even if it had, a different baby would handle a abusive father differently. Each person deals with things their own way.

 

 

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I'm pretty sure that's not the first father who is labeled as over controlling and highly abusive. But the others don't generate a Hitler. It has nothing to do with his father.

To start with the social situation was not as it is today were inter-media violence is much more prevalent today.You must examine the situation surrounding Adolf Hitler and why Germany started out as it did after world war one.

 

Germany had lost the war, so was constricted to the Treaty At Versailles.This agreement, there do writ, where foreign troops, plus the French could enter Germany and do as they pleased.

 

There was a rape of German women, by then guested League Of Nations Ethiopian troops. This rape infuriated Germans when news of this act had gotten out.Adolph Hitler rose to power on the commotion of belittlement from the past rule of the Kaizers, to a now something else.This something else, looked more as if it would be socialism every day.

 

Hitler's father, Alois, was maybe not the best dad for young Adolf then.This is as the boy, Adolph showed the skill to be a budding artist. Since artist are a little closer to nature, the act of Aloise beating the boy, may have driven in what talents he did have as a young lad, to the point to where he began to justify homicide.

 

Historians feel that it was arsenic and this metal may have been skillfully delivered over time.When Adolf attended architect's academy, he had the ability to render in drawings acceptably, however because of his past abuse by a too strict father, he would never flowers as a practicing artist.

 

Immediate world war one Germany is about survival and trying for Germany to attain a true re-do of its own self cultural identity.From the early days of the brown shirts to black shirts, then the rise of Naziism, seesmed to be a divergence point to around just before the mid 1930s.This noted political change, to where a now seeking the office of the German chancellery, where Adolf Hitler was headed.

 

Tremendous technical, as well as in the arts, science and other avenues of social development were taking place.There is only one showing of the people behind Adolf Hitler and this was the very well posted by LIFE Magazine's photographically captured Joseph Goebbels.The photographer came up to the blind side of Goebbels and noted as soon as he turned, by the stare he had given, that the man was nothing but pure evil.

 

You must go back and open the history books and very carefully go through them.Although Adolf Hitler was estranged to a good relationship with his own father, it was the people surrounding him that seemed to help steer him towards a darker course for greater then Germany.

 

It is rumored that an escaped from Germany post world war two Hitler, had been allowed to retire in a remote village in Argentina.The veracity of this claim is not known today.

 

 

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To start with the social situation was not as it is today were inter-media violence is much more prevalent today.You must examine the situation surrounding Adolf Hitler and why Germany started out as it did after world war one.

Germany had lost the war, so was constricted to the Treaty At Versailles.This agreement, there do writ, where foreign troops, plus the French could enter Germany and do as they pleased.

 

There was a rape of German women, by then guested League Of Nations Ethiopian troops. This rape infuriated Germans when news of this act had gotten out.Adolph Hitler rose to power on the commotion of belittlement from the past rule of the Kaizers, to a now something else.This something else, looked more as if it would be socialism every day.

 

Hitler's father, Alois, was maybe not the best dad for young Adolf then.This is as the boy, Adolph showed the skill to be a budding artist. Since artist are a little closer to nature, the act of Aloise beating the boy, may have driven in what talents he did have as a young lad, to the point to where he began to justify homicide.

 

Historians feel that it was arsenic and this metal may have been skillfully delivered over time.When Adolf attended architect's academy, he had the ability to render in drawings acceptably, however because of his past abuse by a too strict father, he would never flowers as a practicing artist.

 

Immediate world war one Germany is about survival and trying for Germany to attain a true re-do of its own self cultural identity.From the early days of the brown shirts to black shirts, then the rise of Naziism, seesmed to be a divergence point to around just before the mid 1930s.This noted political change, to where a now seeking the office of the German chancellery, where Adolf Hitler was headed.

 

Tremendous technical, as well as in the arts, science and other avenues of social development were taking place.There is only one showing of the people behind Adolf Hitler and this was the very well posted by LIFE Magazine's photographically captured Joseph Goebbels.The photographer came up to the blind side of Goebbels and noted as soon as he turned, by the stare he had given, that the man was nothing but pure evil.

 

You must go back and open the history books and very carefully go through them.Although Adolf Hitler was estranged to a good relationship with his own father, it was the people surrounding him that seemed to help steer him towards a darker course for greater then Germany.

 

It is rumored that an escaped from Germany post world war two Hitler, had been allowed to retire in a remote village in Argentina.The veracity of this claim is not known today.

I'm not questioning what brought Germany to war. Or what made Hitler rise to power. This is another discussion that, I think, belongs somewhere else. All I'm saying is that if you could go back in time and alter some small fact on the life of little Adolf's mother, and she ended up giving birth to a girl instead of our favorite dictator, how would that have changed history.

 

 

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I'm not questioning what brought Germany to war. Or what made Hitler rise to power. This is another discussion that, I think, belongs somewhere else. All I'm saying is that if you could go back in time and alter some small fact on the life of little Adolf's mother, and she ended up giving birth to a girl instead of our favorite dictator, how would that have changed history.

 

A lot of what if's. If it was possible to travel back in time and do anything to anyone that would eliminate Adolf Hitler as he was historically ; there are numerous alternatives. My example was that maybe Rommel took the place of Hitler, which could have potentially been far worse. But that is only one scenario out of how many possibilities?

 

What about the ramifications if a traveler did cause the holocaust/WW2 to NOT take place ? What hypothetical circumstances and events could arise from that ?

 

 

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Hmm, I see your point of view and am now walking along the top of a white picket fence in the old American southland.Do not want to fall, "this hurts".:(

 

 

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A lot of what if's. If it was possible to travel back in time and do anything to anyone that would eliminate Adolf Hitler as he was historically ; there are numerous alternatives. My example was that maybe Rommel took the place of Hitler, which could have potentially been far worse. But that is only one scenario out of how many possibilities?

What about the ramifications if a traveler did cause the holocaust/WW2 to NOT take place ? What hypothetical circumstances and events could arise from that ?

Great! Indeed, a lot of what if's! Well, if it wasn't Hitler: Bormann, Göring, Goebbels could easily be the next führer. (I don't see Rommel closer than these three, sorry.)

 

But then, the butterfly effect strikes: if Hitler wouldn't have been born, Mein Kampf wouldn't have been written and who knows where these guys would be! These gentlemen are only known to us as they were, because everything happened the way everything happened. Who knows how history would have unfolded itself if Hitler had never existed? I think we can never say with certainty.

 

But, just for the sake of the exercise: Let's say someone else walked in the steps of Hitler and did things somewhat similar to him. What would prevent us to use the time machine again and avoid that person all over again?

 

 

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I was going to post the following text as a response to KerrTexas on the thread http://timetravelinstitute.com/threads/regardless-of-consequences.9112/ but as I wrote It I realized it would be a whole other subject. I also would like to know what you guys think about it. Well, here it is:

I've always thought about the Hitler issue, regarding time traveling, and I tend to face it differently. One wouldn't have to kill him. Not even kill anyone for that matter. Going back a bit further in time would be enough to just avoid his parents to meet. I don't know, but going back somewhere in time where his mother met his father (I mean, if you have the technology to travel through time like that, you sure could dig up at least the year they met), and intervene in her life in some way that you could change HOW or even better, IF, she met Adolf's father.

 

I do believe that small changes in the past, could mean big changes in the future. Let's say you change the day they met. She was going to the bakery where she met him but you lock the gate of her house with a padlock. She gets late to the bakery and he's not there anymore. For some reason, probably because that Austrian city is small, they met some other day. They still got married, and she still got pregnant. The whole embryology would be different this time. The baby could even be a girl. If it was a boy, it would not be Hitler. She could even name him Adolf Hitler but again, his genetics would not be the same. Then history would've change because of a padlock.

 

Any thoughts?

Avoid Hitler's parents. So Yosef Stalin prevails in Europe instead of Hitler in the 1930's. How does that change the outcome for Europe or the European Jews? I'll give you a hint. Hitler was a piker as compared to Stalin with regards to Jews. They were both mass murders. Stalin didn't take the historical hit that Hitler took because he was on the winning side. Hitler murdered 8 million. Stalin murdered 32 million.

 

So what's your point?

 

 

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For the sake of the exercise let's say someone else walked in the steps of Hitler and did things somewhat similar to him. What would prevent us to use the time machine again and avoid that person all over again?

If we accept a world where time travel to the past is achieved then nothing prevents us from using the gadget over and over and over and over and over... And that's the rub (I've made this point a few dozen times before).

 

Nothing prevents you, he, she, they from changing his, her, our, their past ad infinitum. In such a world "history" has no meaning. No one would even ponder changing what Hitler or Stalin did. Why would they? There would be no specific memory of what happened in the past because it would be possible for an infinite number of people to make an infinite number of changes an infinite number of times over an infinite length of time. If it is possible to make such changes then it will happen.

 

Do you have a finite sense of the past? Does the vast majority of the people you "talk" to agree, in general, with your sense of the past? You answer the question as to whether time travel to the past is possible.

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Avoid Hitler's parents. So Yosef Stalin prevails in Europe instead of Hitler in the 1930's. How does that change the outcome for Europe or the European Jews? I'll give you a hint. Hitler was a piker as compared to Stalin with regards to Jews. They were both mass murders. Stalin didn't take the historical hit that Hitler took because he was on the winning side. Hitler murdered 8 million. Stalin murdered 32 million.

So what's your point?

My point is strictly hypothetical. I took a famous hated character from history and conjectured about the what if's of a society who controls time travel, tampering with his atrocious acts.

 

Like I said before, this wasn't meant to be about who won, who was the most dangerous, who killed more people or who had the worst mustache... :D

 

By any means I wanted to discuss history and how it happened. How it -would- have happened perhaps.

 

 

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If we accept a world where time travel to the past is achieved then nothing prevents us from using the gadget over and over and over and over and over... And that's the rub (I've made this point a few dozen times before).

Nothing prevents you, he, she, they from changing his, her, our, their past ad infinitum. In such a world "history" has no meaning. No one would even ponder changing what Hitler or Stalin did. Why would they? There would be no specific memory of what happened in the past because it would be possible for an infinite number of people to make an infinite number of changes an infinite number of times over an infinite length of time. If it is possible to make such changes then it will happen.

 

Do you have a finite sense of the past? Does the vast majority of the people you "talk" to agree, in general, with your sense of the past? You answer the question as to whether time travel to the past is possible.

I agree. The only thing I diverge from you is that, in this hypothetical state, access to a time travel device wouldn't be available to everyone. I was thinking more like the technology being controlled by a government and less like a household appliance available in every home. I think that would prevent "he, she, they from changing his, her, our, their past ad infinitum". Or maybe not? Too much of a speculation to be made if you asked me...

 

I didn't understand your question about my sense of past, sorry :confused:

 

 

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I agree. The only thing I diverge from you is that, in this hypothetical state, access to a time travel device wouldn't be available to everyone. I was thinking more like the technology being controlled by a government and less like a household appliance available in every home.

Darby (on numerous occasions) has stipulated that a time-travel device could never remain secret, no matter how hard a person tries to do so. Once the device is used once, then the device is NO longer a secret.

 

 

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Do you have a finite sense of the past? Does the vast majority of the people you "talk" to agree, in general, with your sense of the past? You answer the question as to whether time travel to the past is possible.

This is an interesting question. There are numerous people who have "false" memories of the past; their recollection of the past does not reconcile with the vast majority. The most popular event that doesn't seem to match up with some people, is the alleged death of Nelson Mandela in the 1980's. Many people have clear memories of the funeral service in the 80's and of the disingenuous speech made by Winnie Mandela etc.

 

 

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Darby (on numerous occasions) has stipulated that a time-travel device could never remain secret, no matter how hard a person tries to do so. Once the device is used once, then the device is NO longer a secret.

I do agree that it can't remain a secret after first use, but is that the same as being accessible to everyone?

 

I know my country has developed time travel, but I as a citizen don't have access to this technology.

 

 

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I do agree that it can't remain a secret after first use, but is that the same as being accessible to everyone?

I know my country has developed time travel, but I as a citizen don't have access to this technology.

I suppose once the secret is out, there is the potential for it to be accessible to anybody.

 

You know your country has developed time travel? You have to elaborate on this statement. :)

 

 

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I suppose once the secret is out, there is the potential for it to be accessible to anybody.

You know your country has developed time travel? You have to elaborate on this statement. :)

haha I should have wrote it better, my bad.

 

 

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I suppose once the secret is out, there is the potential for it to be accessible to anybody.

My reply isn't necessarily directed towards you Mylo, but provides a good foundation for my reply. :)

 

I have to respectfully disagree, once the secret is out about a time machine does NOT mean that it would be accessible to anybody. If there was a time machine in Area 51, exactly how would that machine be accessible to anybody? I haven't seen a lot of cloned SR-71's flying around ( as an example ), despite it's superiority as a spy plane ( in it's day ). Look at HAARP, nobody outside of the program really knows what they're doing at that facility.

 

 

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I agree. The only thing I diverge from you is that, in this hypothetical state, access to a time travel device wouldn't be available to everyone.

It's time travel, my friend. Of course it is available to everyone. How do you restrict access any technology in a time travel enabled world when it has forever for the technology to leak out? If it can leak out it will leak out. When that happens someone builds and uses a gadget of their own. Eventually someone decides living in 1600 is a great idea - and they take their time machine and all of the associated technological knowledge to 1600 with them.

 

So now there's that technology sitting in 1600 moving alone with society toward the future. Then someone else makes the same decision. Two sets of the technology in 1600. Eventually everyone in 1600 has the technology. It's crowded. Eh - someone gets the bright idea of going to 1000 BC. Someone else chooses 2500 BC. Millions of such decisions are made. In the end from anyone's perspective time machines have always been there. There's nothing to keep secret. There's not a soul in the entire history of that world who can point to a time when time travel was not available or even point to its inventor. It simply is - no one invented it.

 

The Manhattan Project was the largest most expensive and secret military-industrial projects known to man. We couldn't keep the minute details of the science and technology of how to construct an atomic bomb a secret for three months let alone "forever"...and the Russians weren't using a time machine to take possession of the information.

 

You have to look a bit deeper at the scenario and ask yourself about all of its implications. Time travel of the sort usually proposed here implies that there is no such bird as History in such a world, at least not as we would define "history." It also implies that time travel invents itself.

 

Don't get me wrong. The real physics of our universe doesn't imply this. In fact so far the real physics of this universe seems to indicate that time travel to the past is not possible. When physicists look deeper at the issue there is always a known physical interaction that prevents the time machine from working. Does that mean that it is actually impossible? No. But it does mean that it doesn't appear to be likely.

 

 

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It's time travel, my friend. Of course it is available to everyone. How do you restrict access any technology in a time travel enabled world when it has forever for the technology to leak out? If it can leak out it will leak out. When that happens someone builds and uses a gadget of their own. Eventually someone decides living in 1600 is a great idea - and they take their time machine and all of the associated technological knowledge to 1600 with them.

So now there's that technology sitting in 1600 moving alone with society toward the future. Then someone else makes the same decision. Two sets of the technology in 1600. Eventually everyone in 1600 has the technology. It's crowded. Eh - someone gets the bright idea of going to 1000 BC. Someone else chooses 2500 BC. Millions of such decisions are made. In the end from anyone's perspective time machines have always been there. There's nothing to keep secret. There's not a soul in the entire history of that world who can point to a time when time travel was not available or even point to its inventor. It simply is - no one invented it.

 

The Manhattan Project was the largest most expensive and secret military-industrial projects known to man. We couldn't keep the minute details of the science and technology of how to construct an atomic bomb a secret for three months let alone "forever"...and the Russians weren't using a time machine to take possession of the information.

 

You have to look a bit deeper at the scenario and ask yourself about all of its implications. Time travel of the sort usually proposed here implies that there is no such bird as History in such a world, at least not as we would define "history." It also implies that time travel invents itself.

 

Don't get me wrong. The real physics of our universe doesn't imply this. In fact so far the real physics of this universe seems to indicate that time travel to the past is not possible. When physicists look deeper at the issue there is always a known physical interaction that prevents the time machine from working. Does that mean that it is actually impossible? No. But it does mean that it doesn't appear to be likely.

Lol, what a chaos! Indeed, the possibilities are endless... Or would be if we were in another universe ;)

 

 

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I also discussed this topic about do we have a right to change the course of history. We have seen this discussed on TV programs and movies pertaining to the subject of time travel. We can't go back and change things because we never know exactly what we are changing when we try to stop something from happening. It may seem like a great idea at the time, but unless the history was botched up to begin with, kind of like the concept of the series Quatum Leap, maybe going back and changing it isn't a good thing, even if the outcome is better. We never know what problems we could cause in the future by changing the past.

 

 

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